Exploring the Science of Everyday Wonder with Dacher Keltner

Episode Transcript

Dr. Correa:
From the American Academy of Neurology, I'm Dr. Daniel Correa.

Dr. Peters:
And I am Dr. Katie Peters, and this is the Brain and Life Podcast.

Dr. Correa:
Welcome back to the Brain and Life Podcast. Today, we're excited to bring you yet another interview with a great author. But first, I want to start with a question that really touched me. Steven A. wrote to us and expressed, "After two ischemic strokes myself, my first year, I fell into a deep depression. The loss of identity, the feeling of uselessness was overwhelming. I don't think the emotional toll from a brain injury is talked about enough. I realized that you can't prepare for it, but it wasn't even mentioned during the eight weeks I was in the hospital. My strokes were one right after the other in 2019. I'm one of the blessed and lucky ones that my wife stayed right beside me throughout this ordeal. I participate in several online support groups, and there's someone, sadly, almost daily that shares their spouse has left them alone. I couldn't imagine having to deal with this alone."
Steven, thank you so much for bringing attention to this important issue. You're right, unfortunately, sometimes it's not mentioned well enough in all the other things that are being addressed in the hospital and trying to get you to the rehab or even in the rehab, really taking the time to get a perspective on how an individual is coping with their new limitations, how they're thinking of the future ahead and their rehab, or even asking some of these same questions of their spouse and caregivers, and we all need to improve in that. In fact, in a 2019 review of over 37,000 stroke cases, 6,922 or 18.5%, had some psychiatric comorbidities. So what we mean by that is different psychiatric symptoms that persisted after the stroke. This can occur with various mental health conditions, but depression and anxiety are among the most common.
This is not just limited to the person who survived or is living with their stroke symptoms. In a recent 2024-published study, they found the three-year risk for partners and adult children or caregivers of people living with a stroke is 1%. Some people think, "Oh, 1%, that's not a huge amount," but that's 1 out of every 100. When you're that one person, it's 100%. I think in the experience that I've seen that that might be actually even undercounting the impact for many caregivers and care partners on the stress and all of the other impacts on them in terms of supporting our family members. Thank you, Stephen, particularly for bringing this and helping us point out the importance of the impact of not just the motor and the sensory symptoms or changes in speech from a stroke, but also how much it impacts reframing who you are, your new identity and creating a new identity as you move your rehab forward and how this impacts also your family and care partners.
We should all be having these discussions within our families, with the care partners and caregivers that we have, and with our medical providers, ask these questions. Remember, we can all strengthen and grow with counseling support through support groups like Stephen, and when necessary, consider talking and seeing a physiatrist. Sometimes after stroke or other types of brain injuries, some psychiatric medicines can help you and not only have a better outlook and some of the actual better approaches to addressing some of the chemical limitations and injury to your brain, but also help you be more available and prepared to support your family members who are supporting you and support your own rehab.
Look for a community with other stroke support survivors or other brain injury support survivors like Stephen did. Care partners and caregivers also seek community that understands what they're going through. One of the ways we can all add joy in our days is to also seek opportunities to be surprised, to learn something new, and to inspire awe. That takes us through the discussion Dr. Peters had with Dr. Keltner as they explore more of the factors and what is awe and how that impacts our lives.

Dr. Peters:
On today's podcast, we'll have Dr. Dacher keltner. He is a distinguished professor of psychology at the University of California at Berkeley. Really, what's amazing is he's going to talk about the phenomenon of awe. If you don't know what awe already is, it's really an investigation into a universal, powerful, much-needed sort of emotion where we really don't do much. We just sort of have that experience. He talks about eight kinds of awe. The first is moral beauty. This is when maybe something that you see, maybe a mother that has had something tragic happen to one of her children and she's showing strength or even in one of our patients or caregivers or loved ones when they are maybe having challenges or losing a loved one.
Then there's collective effervescence, and this is probably one of my favorites is when you're hearing that great song, maybe Swifties out there being at a concert and just being one with the rhythm and the nature and the vibes. Really, the next one is truly nature. Just being out in nature, seeing a rainbow, seeing a waterfall. I know I got to see a lot of that out in Iceland. Then next is music. If you're listening to your favorite piece, and we all have different tastes in music and also visual art, design, and architecture. He mentions The Great Wall is something wonderful to see. I have to admit, when I saw The Great Wall, it was quite amazing. But even looking at the Mona Lisa or seeing maybe a building that's just really awe-inspiring.
Next is spirituality, mysticism, and religion. I think this makes sense and about what a personal experience you can have. Next is life and death, and the book was actually inspired by the death of his brother. It is a miracle to be born. It's a miracle also to die and to pass away and the emotions that sort of surround that. I think the next and the final one is an epiphany of sort of coming on the idea that when something truly clicks, and so I can't wait to hear from him. It will be exciting to learn about awe and how that awe, emotion, or inspiration or instinct actually does something to our brains and does something to our bodies.

Dr. Correa:
Can't get enough of the Brain and Life Podcast. Keep the conversation going on social media when you follow @NeuroDrCorrea and @BrainandLifeMag or visit brainandlife.org.

Dr. Peters:
Hello Brain in Life podcast listeners. I hope you are all doing well, and I know that I am awestruck because I have a wonderful guest for us today. It is Dr. Dacher Keltner. He is a distinguished professor of psychology at the University of California at Berkeley. He also is the faculty director of something that I can't wait to learn about, a Greater Good Science Center. We both got our PhDs from Stanford, so I was really happy to learn that. He's going to be talking about the concept of awe, which that's why I said awestruck. He wrote a national-bestselling book called Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How it Can Transform Your Life. Dr. Keltner, welcome to the Brain and Life Podcast.

Dacher Keltner:
It's great to be with you, Katie.

Dr. Peters:
Wonderful. I did mention that you're at UC Berkeley, but before discussing the book in greater detail, do you mind just telling us a little bit more about yourself and where you're joining us from?

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah, and it's always great to reach medical communities, which has been one of the great communities that I've been privileged to teach over the years. Yeah, I am a scientist and I study two things largely, which is human emotion, the evolution of emotions like compassion and awe. They're neurophysiology, what they do for us, how they change our minds. Then I study hierarchies, power, status, respect, reputation, the abuse of power, which is inevitable. I've done that for 29 years at UC Berkeley and then before that four years at UW Madison.
Then I have been lucky to, because of the science that we do in my lab and the teaching I do at Berkeley, reach other audiences through the Greater Good Science Center, which you brought up, which is greatergood.berkeley.edu. One of our central audiences, very large is healthcare providers. It just reports on the latest science of things like awe or gratitude or mindfulness or stress. We have ggia.berkeley.edu, Greater Good in Action, which is if you want to teach your patient or huddle with your team in a way that cultivates mindfulness or connection or wonder or beauty, we've got little practices for you to do. Then I host a podcast Science of Happiness, which has won a lot of awards and reaches a lot of people and gets his science out there.

Dr. Peters:
I like that Science of Happiness. Can you tell us a little more about that, the podcast? I'd love to learn more.

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah, thank you. Well, as probably many of our listeners know, the happiness is this obsession right now, not only in our culture, but in the social sciences. Economists and psychologists and sociologists and public policymakers are wondering about happiness. So for 35, 40 years people have been studying it and figuring out how much does money make you happy or friendship or marriage or kids or economic inequality or democracy and just amazing work on that.
Out of that science grew, especially with the mindfulness movement, like the idea of cultivating happiness. What can I do in little moments of the day through breathing or meditating on kindness or practicing gratitude or getting outdoors to find happiness? On our podcast, what we do is every week we have somebody try a practice that brings happiness, listening to music or listening to birdsong or going on a walk outdoors or thinking about three good things in life. The people who do this come from all walks of life, from medical doctors to the formerly incarcerated to high school kids. Then we send it out to our hundreds of thousands of listeners. Then we also have a podcast called Happiness Break, which is just very practical. It's like you listen to it and you get a practice on just how to find happiness. So we're really proud to be giving that away for free.

Dr. Peters:
That is absolutely wonderful, and I'm going to put those in my rotation. I love that. Again, that's the Science of Happiness and Happiness Break are those two podcasts. As I told you before we came on line to tape this, I'm a neurologist by training. I actually treat patients with brain tumors, with brain cancer and we ran a mindfulness study. In clinical research, it takes us sometimes years to enroll patients. We actually were able to enroll this mindfulness study in three months, which was unbelievable.

Dacher Keltner:
Wow.

Dr. Peters:
So I do think that what I'll give you kudos for is I think you're making these kind of interventions accessible-

Dacher Keltner:
Exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Peters:
... to the population. So what do you get back from the people that listen to this? Do you hear back from those listeners? What do they tell you about how they're utilizing it?

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah, and I will say, Katie, I started to teach compassion and mindfulness to healthcare audiences, Kaiser Permanente, Sutter Health out here 25, 30 years ago, and people are like, "What is this Berkeley guy talking about?" Now, we know that connection adds 10 years to your life expectancy. We know the neurophysiology of compassion and how it benefits people with heart issues or awe. We know a lot about it, and there's a real hunger for this knowledge given those scientific advances. Our philosophy is get this out to a lot of people who really advance the well-being of our society, and our focus at the Greater Good Science Center has been teachers and healthcare providers.
I come from a whole line of teachers. I deeply admire healthcare providers and the work you do, and the response has largely been incredible. I'll give you one minor example. I was walking to work through this beautiful park and this guy looks like he recognizes me and I'm like, "I don't recognize him." He smiles and he says, "Hey, I'm a psychiatrist. Thanks for your work. Whenever I have a patient, when I prescribe something for them, I first say, 'Go check out Greater Good in Action and listen to Science of Happiness and see what speaks to you.'" The idea is we're learning a lot about how music and nature and awe and gratitude and touch and social connection help us mentally and physically. So let's make that part of healthcare, and hopefully this conversation is part of that effort.

Dr. Peters:
Absolutely. So tell us a little bit now about your book, Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How it Can Transform Your Life.

Dacher Keltner:
The book, I mean, it's gotten me into so many interesting conversations, above all with healthcare providers. So I'm this crazy scientist who studies emotion in the spirit of Charles Darwin and William James, and we can measure facial muscles and tones of voice and shifts in vagal tone and oxytocin and brain chemistry, all this amazing stuff. One approach in the field of emotion is to study emotions you love. In the course of my career, when I was a young professor and always ashamed of my Vita and the like. I studied shame and embarrassment. Then as I got older and started to think about... I had these encounters with Buddhists, I started to study compassion and the like.
Then frankly, when my first daughter was born, 1997. I was just awestruck and I was like, "I got to study awe." It's, look at this emotion. You start crying. You want to do good for the world. You're awestruck. So what I did in my lab, this is 8, 10 people and lots of labs around the world, is we just studied awe. We studied awe as an emotion you feel when you encounter vast mysteries like Einstein. I feel it is the fundamental human emotion. It has a remarkable neurophysiology of reduced activation in the default mode network where the ego really is activated vagal tone, parasympathetic activation, oxytocin release, reduced inflammation, tears, amazing.
My lab has studied what does awe do for us? It helps us be charitable. It helps us feel humble. It helps us feel connected to nature and community. Interestingly, we've also figured out in the study of over 26 countries, it's like, "Where we find awe?" We find awe a couple times a week and you find it in things we love like dance and music and visual wonders and nature and the moral beauty of people, just how their strength can overwhelm us. Finally, Katie, I'll tell you a personal dimension to this related to healthcare, which is I really wrote the book as my brother was passing away.
Yeah. Who's the younger brother, Rolf, speech therapist. My moral compass, absolutely. I shared everything awe-inspiring with him in a really incredible childhood. He got colon cancer, and you all know what that does. Yeah, bad news, tough struggle. Yeah, devastating. I, like a lot of our world when he passed away, was blown off the map. I went in search of awe, and I knew from our lab that awe is really good for you. It resituates you in a meaningful life. I went to nature and I sought out new sources of moral beauty, and I listened to music in new ways and had experiences with contemplative teachers. It got me back into life. That's why it's so relevant to healthcare. It's easy to find and it's really good for us.

Dr. Peters:
Well, I'm so sorry to hear about your brother.

Dacher Keltner:
Thank you.

Dr. Peters:
I'm sure he did amazing work as a speech therapist. It's just so important for-

Dacher Keltner:
Oh, my God.

Dr. Peters:
... our neurologic patients. You've mentioned over and over again in sort of your description of awe is sort of this communal nature experience. I was looking at the cover of your book. By the way, it's a beautiful cover, and I see there's the aurora and the northern lights. We've recently had these solar flares and the northern lights and the eclipse. I've found so many of my patients where they weren't doing sort of that communal with nature how much it has meant to them.

Dacher Keltner:
Oh my God.

Dr. Peters:
Can you comment on that? We are now seeing these awesome, very positive nature experiences in awe. Can you comment on that?

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah. I'll start with one of the people I profile in the book is probably a kind of person you might see in your practice. Katie is a veteran. A lot of veterans have head trauma. Stacey Bear. Remarkable guy, came back from Iraq. He's 6'8". So he is appropriately named. He's this huge guy, came back from Iraq, all the horrors, and became addicted to drugs and was suicidal. He was saved by the outdoors, and he was rock climbing, and this voice in his head said, "Get outdoors." As I was grieving the loss of my brother not sleeping, which was what grief is and anxious. That same voice was like, "Get outdoors, Dacher. Just be outdoors."
We know Ming Kuo has a review of the health benefits of being outdoors. I'm talking about not just backpacking in Grand Canyon, but looking at the sky, looking at the sunset, gardening. If you're in a city, go find a little park and watch the fall leaves fall, whatever it is. Being outdoors, there are 21 pathways by which we open up to nature and it helps our bodies. It helps with inflammation. It helps with cardiovascular function. It helps with your attention. It helps with cortisol levels. It helps regulate your digestion. It's so incredible. Even just the colors, the sounds of running water, the scents that certain flowers and trees give off, affect our bodies in very precise ways that are good for your health.
So this new literature, we should be prescribing nature. My colleague, Dr. Leif Hass, who's a hospitalist, has written for the Greater Good Science Center and been on our podcast and he prescribes it. He's like, "Okay, great. You're struggling with diabetes or what have you. Here's a prescription, get outdoors." Yeah. So that's what I felt physically and personally, knowing the scientific literature. I will say with Stacey Bear, we got veterans and inner city kids who were at the toughest high schools to go rafting for half a day. It gave them weeks of benefits. 32% drop in PTSD. I think this has to be part of 21st-century healthcare.

Dr. Peters:
I completely agree. I guess the first place that I would think would fill my cup is after being in California for so long. Lake Manzanita, definitely at Lassen National Park. I'm a big fan. Big fan.

Dacher Keltner:
I've never been. What's it do for you, Katie? What happens to you when you're there?

Dr. Peters:
It's the coldness of the lake and all the trees and just seeing the mountains and being at a high elevation. Also the memories of the communal nature of it, of going there with my uncle and my grandmother and my parents really comes back to not just my own self, having that awe moment in that nature, but also sharing it. I know that you do research with social interaction.

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Peters:
Would you posit that awe could be contagious?

Dacher Keltner:
Oh my God. Is it contagious? Let's start with a fascinating finding, which is... or let's start with first, where we are culturally high levels of depression, anxiety. Vivek Murthy, our surgeon general, whom I get to work with from time to time. Loneliness, epidemic, 40% of Americans feeling like they don't have the connection they want. When we feel awe, when you go look at Lake Manzanita, even if you're by yourself, you're like, "I feel connected. I feel like I'm part of something large." That's the point, the communal part of awe. Then is it contagious? I mean, this is one of my favorite discoveries, and we've yet to study this in the lab, but there's a kind of awe we find in stories of moral beauty.
When you hear a story about Malala, the great young woman who fought for the right to be educated as a young girl in that region of the world, or you hear about MLK, or you hear about Rachel Carson, one of my heroes, the environmentalist writer battling cancer, impoverished, raising her sister's son. Her sister died of cancer and wrote a silent spring. She got our world in the United States to think about environmental destruction. Hero, right I get goosebumps thinking about her. When people tell these stories of awe, other people around them start crying. They're just like, "You don't know the person."
This with medical doctors, and I did a lot of this work during the pandemic. I would say, "Tell me about a moment of moral beauty with a patient." I remember one saying, "There was this woman really succumbing to some kind of disease late in life. She gave me her scarf and said how grateful she was for the care, I, this doctor had given to her. I wear the scarf once a week just to honor her." There's so much moral beauty and contagious awe in healthcare. So it's a wildly contagious emotion. Just think about going to see a music concert. Give me an example, Katie, of experience of auto-musical event experience for you.

Dr. Peters:
Oh, I would have to say number one would be my favorite musical chess. It's old. It's about a chess game. But when they hit those amazing notes and they come together, there's one point where it's a quartet on a mountain. I guess it's in Eastern Europe, I think. But no, it's in Switzerland. It's in Switzerland. It always comes over me. I guess the other thing for a musical, I would think of, "Oh, it's always Les Miz, one day more." I think my mother-in-law would choose differently. She's an opera fan, so I think she wants that to be a little more contagious for me. How about you?

Dacher Keltner:
Well, it's African music, and then it's funny, Iggy Pop, whom I love. But the fascinating part of it for me, there are two big questions there. One is why do certain kinds of music speak to us? I think Iggy Pop, who's this early punk rocker. I grew up in a poor, tough town where a lot of the young guys were like Iggy Pop, like fighters. I'm like, "I get that feeling." But then the remarkable thing that science has yet to really capture is what you're talking about, which is the contagious nature of it. If you go see Les Miz and it's a great performance, the people around you are your family. You're just like, "I love you. Let's go camping." That tells us how powerful and needed awe is.

Dr. Peters:
Now, because I'm a neurologist and I'm curious, and I want to ask a little bit about some of the science. When you're studying awe, what do you see that it does to our brains? Can you see neuroimaging? You mentioned sort of some of those hormonal aspects and the oxytocin aspect. But if we were to have an awe experience, what's going on in our brain?

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah, this gets really interesting conceptually because awe is foundational to, for example, spiritual experiences and mystical experiences and experiences with music. So the study of awe becomes this portal into understanding the neurophysiological processes of some of the most fascinating human experiences. We know a few things, as you well know, Katie and I would love to study neurological patients who feel a lot of awe, and I don't think it's ever been done. What we know when you feel awe, and this is work from Holland and Japan and the US, the default mode network is deactivated. So that's the posterior cingulate cortex, parts of the medial cortex. That is where a lot of self-representational, autobiographical processing takes place. That's very interesting because people say, "When I feel awe, I'm not even aware of myself. I disappear," and it's true neurophysiologically.
There's a little bit of work from Japan showing some kinds of awe, feel fearful, right? There are deep veins of fear in the experience, and those experiences of awe activate the amygdala, which makes sense, right? This threat-related region of the brain. Then there's a little bit of work showing awe can also activate nucleus accumbens, reward circuitry. Then you're mentioning of oxytocin is very significant and there's only one study of it, and I hope for more oxytocin goes into the midbrain region, periaqueductal gray, that region of the brain, very important in mammalian emotion. It's hard to image. So we don't know a lot about it, but what these findings suggest, which is really interesting, is this, maybe there are these neurophysiological structures that underpin the sense of communal connection or interconnectivity that awe is defined by, as you suggested. I think that'd be really important too as a discovery.

Dr. Peters:
Yes, I've always wanted to study hope in our patients, I think that. I've always thought of it, hope as almost a construct of really reward and even in the shape of how we evaluate placebo experience and think of it as something coming from the activation of the nucleus accumbens. So I agree with you. What I think is fascinating that you mentioned is not only does it have that reward sense awe does, but it's also not a depersonalization, but it's something wider than you are.

Dacher Keltner:
This is so profound and so you know so much of western psychology and neuroscience and perhaps neurology, your field has centered on self-focus and self-interest and rewards. Yet all of these important processes are involved in depersonalization of like, "No, this isn't about me." So, for example, aesthetic experiences. When you find music transcendentally beautiful or art or somebody's a dance performance, that is a depersonalized experience. It's not about you. It's about other stuff out there. We don't know a lot about that process neurophysiologically, and awe could get us there, which would be really cool to start to unpack, "How can we move from looking through the world, through our brains and minds in terms of self, but then also being free to the self and going to other domains in a depersonalized way?"

Dr. Peters:
Yeah. I'll have to give a shout-out to my colleague, Dr. Joel Salinas. He actually wrote a book. I don't know if you've read it. It's called Mirror Touch: Notes From a Doctor Who Can Feel Your Pain, and he has synesthesia, so he describes the phenomenology. When I was talking with him, I was like, "I wish I could feel that way," and to have these experiences.

Dacher Keltner:
I know. Yeah.

Dr. Peters:
But I think these are the important things to study because we do want to have effect on our brain health and can awe do something to our brain health? Now, have you studied that? Do you know, other than the oxytocin and sort of the experience, does it promote longevity? You mentioned that it did lessen PTSD.

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah, and for the listener, I just published a paper with Maria Monroy, 2022, on What We Know About the Health Benefits of Awe. There are many, reduced inflammation, better vagal tone, enhanced attention, lower cortisol. We don't know a lot about brain health and it's such an important direction to go, and we're starting this work in our lab, and if there are listeners out there who have patient groups that want to do this work, please reach out.
I'll give you an example. You can find a lot of awe with music, and we're working with Carnegie Hall on developing ways to find awe with music, and people love music. People with neurological conditions certainly could listen to music regularly. Why not build a program that helps them find the deeper meaning of music, awe, and see what it does for their brains, right? The same with visual art, that forms of art bring us awe being outdoors. We're initiating tests. I would love to work with Brain Health Scholars. I think it's a next frontier, frankly, for a lot of good reasons.

Dr. Peters:
It's one of the missions here at the American Academy of Neurology, and also our Brain and Life Magazine and Podcast. We're all about what we can do for brain health. I would say it's a continuous thread that runs through our podcast, but one of the challenges is unfortunately, our patients may develop, their senses get compromised. So where they could have really loved music before, maybe they have an agnosia that's associated with it, or whether it's visual or auditory. But maybe if you could harness awe, you could overcome it.

Dacher Keltner:
Yeah. Let's remember those eight wonders of life that I write in the book, that across the cultures, that music, visual design, stories about people. There's a lot of awe out in the world. That is, if one modality is compromised, say audition, you can go to the visual. They're probably sense olfaction roots to awe, smelling incredible flowers and the like. So there are ways to get it, and it's really what I'm devoting the next 10 years of my career to, to build a suite of awe intervention offerings that if you have a patient group, you can try one, you can try a music program, or you can try a visual design program and see what it does.

Dr. Peters:
I want to be part of the awe intervention, awe revolution, the awe beginning. But Dr. Keltner, this has been so much fun chatting with you today. I just want to give a shout out to again, your two podcasts, Science of Happiness and Happiness Break.

Dacher Keltner:
Yes.

Dr. Peters:
I started your book. I need to finish it.

Dacher Keltner:
You better.

Dr. Peters:
I will. I will. Next time there's a pop quiz. But the book is Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life. Just thank you again so much for coming and joining our podcast.

Dacher Keltner:
Thank you, Katie. It's been a wonderful conversation. I so respect the work that you all do.

Dr. Correa:
Thank you again for joining us today on The Brain and Life Podcast. Follow and subscribe to this podcast so you don't miss our weekly episodes. You can also sign up to receive the Brain and Life Magazine for free at brainandlife.org. Don't forget about Brain and Life en Espanol.

Dr. Peters:
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Dr. Correa:
You can also find that information in our show notes, and you can follow Katie and me and the Brain and Life Magazine on many of your preferred social media channels.

Dr. Peters:
These episodes would not be possible without the Brain and Life Podcast team.

Dr. Correa:
Including Nicole Lussier, our senior manager of public engagement.

Dr. Peters:
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Dr. Correa:
We are your hosts, Dr. Daniel Correa, connecting with you from New York City and online @NeuroDrCorrea.

Dr. Peters:
And Dr. Katie Peters, joining you from Durham, North Carolina and online @KatiePetersMDPhD.

Dr. Correa:
Most importantly, thank you and all of our community members that trust us with their health and everyone living with neurologic conditions.

Dr. Peters:
We hope together we can take steps to better brain health and each thrive with our own abilities every day.

Dr. Correa:
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Exploring the Science of Everyday Wonder with Dacher Keltner

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