Barbara Corcoran on Becoming a Business Tycoon with Dyslexia

Episode Transcript

Dr. Nath:
This week on the Brain & Life Podcast from the American Academy of Neurology. I talked to an absolute legend in business. She's on Shark Tank. Daniel, have you ever seen Shark Tank?

Dr. Correa:
I think, I've started some episodes, see a pitch.

Dr. Nath:
All right, fine. Then the flip side, do you have any business ideas, or did you have a lemonade stand as a kid or anything like that?

Dr. Correa:
So many people have like that big fish story that they tell, or they laugh about it. When I was in high school, my senior year, I took an international marketing course. We were supposed to think of-

Dr. Nath:
Oh, cool.

Dr. Correa:
...some sort of business pitch idea, I guess like Shark Tank. A friend of mine, the two of us, we thought of pitching to the movie studios, hosting their movies and TV shows, and all of their content past and present online for a subscription service in the 2000s.

Dr. Nath:
Wait. You invented Netflix?

Dr. Correa:
I was really passionate about medical school, so that's the direction I went.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, oh gosh. That would've incredible. Barbara Corcoran could've helped you with that. I'm just saying. She tells us about how before her business success, when she was a kid, she had dyslexia in school and the challenges she overcame and being underestimated, and how she really leaned into her other strengths, creativity, being super social, to use those strengths to become very successful in business.

Dr. Correa:
I mean, I think, so many people just don't really understand- the term dyslexia gets thrown around. This is going to be just so important for all of us to have a better understanding both adults and as kids. Really looking forward to this episode.

Dr. Nath:
Today, we are speaking with an absolute titan in the business world. Many of us know Barbara Corcoran as objectively the most likable shark on ABC's Shark Tank, but she had been building an empire in real estate and business for decades before we started to see her on TV.

Dr. Nath:
What we're going to talk about today is not necessarily the specifics of how she turned a thousand-dollar loan into a multi-billion-dollar business, though I'm totally curious about that, but instead about how she's accomplished so much in spite of a diagnosis of dyslexia. And how she has thrived with a learning difference.

Dr. Nath:
Welcome to the Brain & Life Podcast, Barbara Corcoran.

Barbara Corcoran:
Thank you, Dr. Audrey. So nice to be here and on my favorite subject, by the way.

Dr. Nath:
Wonderful. You know, I want to know how it all started. Let's go back. Let's go way before Shark Tank. Let's go before the real estate.

Dr. Nath:
When you were a kid, how did this all start? When did you or your teachers or family start to notice that you were having some trouble with reading?

Barbara Corcoran:
I think I was a little late in being spotted because I was clever. I knew how to fly under the radar, which is a gift you learn how to stay out of trouble when you have something different going on with you that the other kids don't seem to have. But I discovered that I couldn't read by second grade because Sister Stella Marie, she pulled me out, made me stand up and pulled me on the ear or the hair. I can't remember quite-

Dr. Nath:
Oh, my goodness.

Barbara Corcoran:
She shook my head, like she was going to improve me.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, gosh.

Barbara Corcoran:
She said, "If you don't learn to read or write, you're always going to stay stupid."

Dr. Nath:
No, you were a seven-year-old kid.

Barbara Corcoran:
That was really bad. You feel very helpless. For me, why that was very important, I think in my life is because for the first time I had a label of what was wrong with me. Wrong label, but a label.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, my goodness.

Barbara Corcoran:
However, there is a however in this.

Dr. Nath:
Okay.

Barbara Corcoran:
Because even most bad stories have mostly happy endings, if you persist. Before that, in my little town of Edgewater, we played chalk games on the street. That was our playground, tight little houses. Kind of like Archie Bunker type stripping queens, that kind of thing. I was the most popular kid, contrary to my reading disability, as they called it. I was the most popular kid since I was five on my block because I had one gift which was to make up great chalk games. I drew well. I could draw a circle, straight lines, boxes very well. I made up extravagant chalk games from the time I was five till the time I was probably 10, 11 when kids stopped playing. Everybody wanted to be on my chalk game, and this was within blocks.

Barbara Corcoran:
Even before realizing I had some kind of a learning difference, I really felt inside my soul that I was better at chalk games than any other kids. So, in my mind I was successful because everybody wanted to be on my chalk game, and they wanted to go first on my chalk game. And I had my little kingdom of power.

Barbara Corcoran:
That honestly was tremendously important to offset once I got the stupid label. You know how kids can be cruel.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, gosh.

Barbara Corcoran:
They don't mean to be. I have kids. I know how it happens. But kids pick up a chant right away. So, I got my label for old grammar school, but it was just because I couldn't see differences. I distinctly remember the spot in Jane books, which you probably don't know what that is.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Barbara Corcoran:
You do remember them. Okay. I remember, I couldn't see the difference between him and her. In my eye, it looked exactly the same. So, you didn't know who they were talking about. A little difference makes a heck of a difference in understanding. And so, because I couldn't understand things, I got a label as of, "What a nice child, Mrs. Corcoran. She's not very bright, but what a sweet girl."

Dr. Nath:
Oh, my goodness.

Barbara Corcoran:
I was sweet because I was quiet. I didn't want to be called on. You learn all that stuff.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah.

Barbara Corcoran:
At least I had a label that I was such a nice girl. Then it went from there. Yeah.

Dr. Nath:
Few things about that are really fascinating to me that you had strength and confidence that came from knowing that you were creative, and you knew that you could work with people, and you could read people. I think that's really interesting that as a five-year-old, you kind of knew that about yourself, and you leaned into it. And that gave you some core inner strength.

Barbara Corcoran:
You know what Dr. Audrey? I think you overstated it because I really didn't feel that way. That would be great if I could be a Mighty Mouse and fight.

Dr. Nath:
Looking back.

Barbara Corcoran:
Thinking back, I distinctly remember thinking, I could think of ideas better than everybody else.

Dr. Nath:
Sure.

Barbara Corcoran:
I could think of like, "Why do you have to hop with two feet then go on one foot?"

Dr. Nath:
Sure.

Barbara Corcoran:
I put twirly birds on them. I put handprints- so you had to put your hands down on certain blocks. It really was fast for me.

Dr. Nath:
That's creativity.

Barbara Corcoran:
I had confidence in my creativity. I didn't have a name for it then, but I was very, very confident that I could create things. Yeah.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah, and I'm glad that you shared that story of how you were so negatively labeled. I say that because it does still happen in this day and age that if the child has a missed hearing impairment or a missed learning difficulty, which is treatable, that they can be mislabeled. I'm really glad that you bring that up, so people are aware.

Dr. Nath:
What sorts of accommodations were you given way back then?

Barbara Corcoran:
Well, remember I'm 73 years old. There were no accommodations. We had 42 kids in the class. It was a Catholic school. The parish was paying for it. My parents were so thankful to have myself plus nine other siblings in the school. There were no accommodations. Oh wait, I shouldn't say that because I was kept every day after school from second grade on for reading lessons. So, I guess that's accommodation.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, I suppose so.

Barbara Corcoran:
Individual instruction. But I'm telling you by that time it was... I don't want to say it was hopeless. I just don't remember learning a thing, honestly from those. I felt punished. I guess it underlined how bad my bad was, because I got punished in my... I didn't see it as helping me. I saw it as punishing me because I couldn't go home and play.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, I see because it wasn't during the school hours, which is how we start...we try to do it now.

Barbara Corcoran:
No, they had to take a break from 46... There was one nun, 46 kids or 44 kids. They didn't have that kind of time.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, wow. It's kind of fascinating to hear that and how things have evolved because now we try to integrate it to the school day.

Barbara Corcoran:
So much better. Not great, but better.

Dr. Nath:
Better. Exactly. So, it's really interesting to see what things have not changed or what things have.

Barbara Corcoran:
You know what hasn't changed? Sadly, I think, because I have two dyslexic kids. One beat it and learned how to be an expert reader and graduated from very good school. My younger who's 16 hasn't beat it. She's still at second grade level with all the help money could buy. She's still at second grade level-reading and writing. But if she could hear a book, her comprehension's amazing. If she could dictate her papers, her papers are very good.

Barbara Corcoran:
It's interesting to me what a marked difference it was from the time my oldest son, who's now 28, and my youngest daughter, 16, came through the school system and how much more accommodating the technology is. I think that's the best news of all, every kind of learning difference, is the technology.

Dr. Nath:
Absolutely. It's night and day comparing to before. Now, kids with a significant reading issue can still dictate papers and be writers and go onto college and do well. That is hopeful for sure.

Barbara Corcoran:
Yeah. There's a lot of reasons for hope, but that is marked in my mind with having the two kids.

Dr. Nath:
I'm curious. These things happen. There's a fair prevalence of learning disabilities just among all comers of children.

Dr. Nath:
What happened with you when you realized that your children were having some issues with reading. Did you get kind of flashbacks or were you just like, "All right, we are dealing with this the right way this time." How did it feel?

Barbara Corcoran:
Well of course, if you're loving mom, you deal with everything the best way you can. I'm thorough in what I do, so I invested everything.

Dr. Nath:
Yes.

Barbara Corcoran:
I knew my kids had a learning disability because I was one of those people long before any school was onto it. I went in with my eyes in kindergarten thinking, "This kid's going to have a problem." Not to be negative. What I noted in kindergarten, before they even started letters, is Tommy would come home from school and say, "Could I have a play date?" I go, "Yeah. With who?" He goes, "You know, the kid with the brown hair." "Well, you got a lot of kids with brown hair. What's his name?" "I don't know. You know, the kid with the brown hair, with the mother, with the red hair, with the too much lipstick on the brown bag with the red strap. She was using this kind of plaid shoes." He got everything for a picture, and I knew that's how I was. I could take a picture in order to get it. I have that kind of memory.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, wow. You picked it up on it. You figured it out.

Barbara Corcoran:
But if you give me words, ain't going to happen. I was onto him early and took him out of a tough school at second grade and put him into a very good dyslexic learning school.

Dr. Nath:
That's so interesting.

Barbara Corcoran:
I knew even before she was in kindergarten, I could tell she had something going on there. Yeah, I was onto her.

Dr. Nath:
I think that's so interesting because what you just described, I think many people wouldn't necessarily put together, but because of your own personal experience, you had a kind of a heads up that I think a lot of parents don't have.

Barbara Corcoran:
I have learned that dyslexic children, for the greater part, think in pictures, and they can understand things in context. If you think of a photo or a movie or anything is always in context, whereas a word doesn't have a context, to give you a hint on.

Barbara Corcoran:
I think that's quite common. You would know better than I. You study the subject. I just have my own personal world I've studied.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, that's so interesting that the visuals like that photograph that's in your mind.

Dr. Nath:
I'm curious. Do you think that helped you in business and in real estate and in imagining what different things can look like? Do you think it helped you with houses and design and things like that?

Barbara Corcoran:
Honest to God, it made my career. It didn't help me. It was my career.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah. Okay.

Barbara Corcoran:
Every single trait that a dyslexic child has with a dis on it has a flip side. You could give me a bad term. I'll tell you what the good part of it is. Give me the next bad thing. I'll tell you what the good part is.

Barbara Corcoran:
From day one, I pictured myself as a queen of real estate. It wasn't just I pictured myself with a crown. I knew what I was wearing. I knew people would kiss my ring. I knew I would talk, and people would want to listen. I knew I was a genius. I had this stupid movie, but I'll tell you, I had that instead of a business plan. If someone had said start your business after you have a good plan, it would've never gotten off the ground. But I had that image, which became my roadmap and my business plan because I'm very visual.

Barbara Corcoran:
I used dyslexia to become a great leader. I think it's easier for a leader to lead when they can walk in the shoes of who's following them. Once you are the dumb kid in class, you never look down on anybody ever, ever. It's not in your DNA. You can't. It's like, "Why would you be that person?" It's not a conscious decision. It's just, you don't look down on people. So when you don't look down on people, and whether you're a junior executive or whether you're the top of a big field, I never looked down at anybody. I saw everybody totally equal. In fact, I would go out of my way if people were struggling at every turn along the way. So, people were loyal to me and loved me for that.

Barbara Corcoran:
I could have never gotten that if I didn't have dyslexia. I'm an over preparer. I mean, people always compliment me on what a great job I do in anything I do. They think I'm a natural talent. I'm not. It's just that I grossly over prepare for everything because I've been embarrassed in front of my classmates my whole life, and I don't ever want to be embarrassed again. So, I really study like crazy on every stupid little thing I do because I need to do it for my own confidence.

Barbara Corcoran:
Then most importantly, and I really believe, and if you check out incredible entrepreneurs that have built empires, they always address a particular trait that I had that I didn't know what it was, but I sure knew I had it. In building my business, I could get an idea because I could- ideas are your natural gift when you're dyslexic. You're an idea generate. I would get an idea and then see it in my mind in living color, just like queen of real estate, but an organizational structure of people and what they do and where they'd go, it was floating above an organizational chart made up of people and talent. I could actually float and see it in a flash and describe it to people. "Here's what we're going to do." People always had their mouth open because I could spit it out. It made such good sense because you have that ability to look down.

Barbara Corcoran:
If you study how babies learn that are dyslexic, because you're born dyslexic, doesn't develop. When babies learn, they learn what the mother looks like differently than other kids in that they could see the hand and fill in the blank of the rest of the face. Another child sees a hand and sees a hand. So, dyslexic from the beginning of the time learn visualization and see the whole picture. You know? That's their natural gift. That, believed me when you're building an organization? It's everything. Not everything, but it's so useful.

Dr. Nath:
That's huge.

Barbara Corcoran:
It's like you have magic dust. Really.

Dr. Nath:
Absolutely. I think most people are not able to do that. There's no way I could do that. I mean, that's a really interesting thing that you've gained and all the other things that you've used to compensate that are huge strengths for you now.

Barbara Corcoran:
Oh, yeah. Definitely.

Dr. Nath:
I'm curious, based on what you were saying about how being dyslexic and your experiences have given you empathy for people. When you meet entrepreneurs on Shark Tank, do you find that you have a connection with people who have faced adversity for that reason? Do you think?

Barbara Corcoran:
Yes, that's a secondary step. What I find I have immediately is I could size someone up right away. I look at them, I'm out in my head. I can't of course go out. I look at you. I don't like what I see, I'm out. It's unacceptable on that show.

Barbara Corcoran:
I ask the questions, wait the turn, but I never change my mind. When I see someone, I go with my gut. I feel like I can feel inside their sole almost. If they’re a good person, a bad person, a phony baloney, a sincere person, insecure person, a hurt person. I just feel it. I believe that's a gift of dyslexic kids if they are open to it.

Barbara Corcoran:
Unfortunately, when you're young, that same gift makes you extremely intuitive and sensitive to feeling things that other kids don't have to feel. That's a little tough when you're young, but when you're older, you've done all your homework on people smarts.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, right.

Barbara Corcoran:
Directly answering your question on Shark Tank, I'm sizing up people right away. The insurance I get and my best entrepreneurs are all learning disables. I have a nose. I could feel it almost when they walk on the set. Okay?

Barbara Corcoran:
I love a disabled person in that regard. I even hate the word disabled. I wish I'd get rid of the dis and put another word there. But these particular people have something to prove just like I've proved my whole life to that stupid teacher once and for all. I'm not stupid.

Barbara Corcoran:
Yes, I look for that intentionally where I'm going to put my money because I want to get a winner. I want to get someone who's going to finish. Business is nothing more than overcoming obstacles. Really, it's a series of obstacles. What could you imagine to get over it? What could you do differently? But it's obstacle after obstacle. If I could get someone who's used to coming over a big obstacle, like a learning difference, oh my God, I've got so much better chance of winning and making money, which is why I'm on that show, too. I want to help you, but I also want to make money.

Dr. Nath:
Yes. I'm a big fan of the show.

Barbara Corcoran:
Or at least I don't want to lose money.

Dr. Nath:
Right. It's interesting that you talk about the ways that you compensated, like preparing more. From the outside, people see you and are just like, "Oh wow. It looks so easy as you do these things." Really, it's like, "Oh no, I put extra preparation in order to overcome these five different things that I foresaw as being difficulties." Which I think people just don't see. They just see a polished product. Right?

Barbara Corcoran:
They have to see me on break, me sweating it out. How am I doing? How am I going to do this? All the insecurities that come between when the camera's rolling.

Barbara Corcoran:
I mean, I have to say to you to this day on Shark Tank, I'm never in that seat where I'm not scared. I'm scared every time, not like I was the first couple of years. The first couple of years, I just assumed I was failing. Then, I remembered I had to change the tape in my head that did say, "Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Look what you're doing." I changed the tape to, "Come on. That's pretty good. That's pretty good."

Dr. Nath:
That internal voice, right?

Barbara Corcoran:
Yeah.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah.

Barbara Corcoran:
People could tell you what they tell you, but the only voice that really counts in the end, I think is your mother's voice and your own voice. That's my own theory on that.

Dr. Nath:
I love the way that you phrase that, but changing the tape playing in your head, that is such a good way to say it because what you do say to yourself and that internal monologue has a huge impact on how you think, for sure.

Barbara Corcoran:
I might also tell you because I think it makes a difference. It's key because I struggle to change that tape my whole life still kicks in sometimes. It haunts you, but I've nailed it 95% of the time.

Barbara Corcoran:
I think it's also, when you're trying to put a new tape in your head, you have to find a tape that you could do in fast speed. It's got a kick in really, really fast with lots of words because when you're insecure and you're playing that old tape, which was negative tape you learned very early, it's always slow, and it's tedious. It goes with the rhythm of it. So, I have a different tape that boom! Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, wow.

Barbara Corcoran:
That old positive. I think you need the speed almost to hang onto it better. Yeah.

Dr. Nath:
Oh, that's such a good way to put it, though. Because when you talk about that old tape, sometimes those sorts of negative thoughts that are instilled when you're really little, there is a familiarity to it that can almost kind of lull some people, myself included. I mean, I think everybody does this to some degree. They’re like, "Well, that's familiar. That's what it's always been." It can be easy to fall into it.

Barbara Corcoran:
Oh, that's what's wrong with it. You're stuck in a rut. It's comfortable because it's a rut. You've been playing it for years.

Dr. Nath:
Exactly.

Barbara Corcoran:
That's why it's powerful.

Dr. Nath:
What would you like to say to young people coming up who may be interested in real estate and may have a learning difference that come to you for advice? Because this must happen. What do you say to them?

Barbara Corcoran:
I meet parents all the time and kids all the time. I give various advice based on what my intuition tells me they need. I vary it. If you're asking generally, and I'm not talking to an individual, I would say everything in your life if you've been spotted as having a learning difference, if you're getting the help that you need, no matter what you do, most people tend to think it's something to work around. That's a disservice because if you work around something you're lacking, you're looking at the thing you're lacking all the time.

Barbara Corcoran:
I believe you have to take what the world's telling you you're lacking, and you just decide that it has an asset to it. What's the asset? Always look at the asset. For every really negative term that kids can't do well in their younger dyslexic years, even as a youngster, I think you could train yourself say, "Okay, what's the flip side? What's the flip side?"

Barbara Corcoran:
If you could focus on that, which takes some learning of course, but you could make a dirty habit of the wrong tape, and you could make a dirty habit equally well of the upside of everything. I think you have to think of it as a difference that gives you a huge upside, and you have to really recognize the upside and make it more of you. Make it a bigger section of yourself. Because that's why there are so many, so many extremely successful dyslexics in business. That's my field. I'm sure it's true of the art world. I'm sure. It's true everywhere.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah, that is interesting.

Barbara Corcoran:
I believe we have so many of them, a disproportionate number, not just the ones I invest, but a disproportionate number of hugely successful... Because they think outside the box. That sounds so trite, but they're not focused on what they're lacking. They're focused on, "Whoa, I could do that differently or maybe better than that guy."

Barbara Corcoran:
Well, that doesn't sound like anything new. Focus on the positive, I guess I just said in 500 words or too many more.

Dr. Nath:
That basically having a different perception of the world can be used as an asset.

Dr. Nath:
Well, Barbara Corcoran, thank you so much for joining us in between your busy business schedule.

Barbara Corcoran:
My pleasure. Thank you, Dr. Audrey.

Dr. Nath:
So nice to meet you.

Dr. Nath:
Is this episode leaving you wanting more? Get the latest tips on healthy living and management for more than 250 neurologic conditions by visiting brainandlife.org, where you can learn about neurology every day. Powered by trusted neurologists.

Dr. Nath:
Today, to learn more about dyslexia, we're joined by Dr. Maria Luisa Gorno-Tempini, who is a behavioral neurologist and professor of neurology. She directs the Dyslexia Center at University of California, San Francisco, where they work to classify dyslexia and work on new treatments.

Dr. Nath:
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Tempini.

Dr. Tempini:
Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Nath:
Briefly for our audience. In broad terms, how do you define dyslexia?

Dr. Tempini:
Yes. Well that seems like a simple question, but...

Dr. Nath:
Right. Yeah.

Dr. Tempini:
But actually isn't. There are many definitions. I think everybody agrees that dyslexia is a condition of neurological origin that really means that, usually a child, but it can be identified even in adults, has difficulty reading that are not expected by their general level of functioning, and that's called intelligence. Although the term intelligence is also very vague, that is unexpected by a child level of functioning and intellectual abilities.

Dr. Tempini:
Also, a very controversial issue is that to be defined, let's say you identified as dyslexic, one needs to have had the appropriate instruction in reading. Written language is an acquired skill. It needs to be taught. There are very, very few, less than 5% of people that will learn to read and write even if they're not taught.

Dr. Tempini:
If a child is not appropriately taught how to read and write, then we cannot, of course define them as dyslexic. The important point is that of neurological origin. It's not something that is caused by the mothers, or the teachers, but there is this interaction with appropriate teaching.

Dr. Nath:
Okay, Barbara Corcoran, who we spoke to talked about when she was a little kid decades ago, she was assumed by people to be intellectually disabled. Does this still happen with your patients now where people make assumptions about their overall intelligence level?

Dr. Tempini:
Yeah, I would say much less than for, presume, my generation or the prior generation. I think it happens much less, but there is still a lot of stigma. I would say that it happened much less that a child would be considered intellectually disabled, but still there is a lot of stigma of equating the easiness in which one learns written language with intelligence. It really isn't. There isn't a correlation with general intelligence. There's a really specific skill that needs to be learned.

Dr. Nath:
Absolutely. This is treatable. This is something we can help people with, but it needs to be identified.

Dr. Nath:
Barbara Corcoran, who is an individual with dyslexia, noted that she had strength in other domains, such as being very socially intelligent and learning in an auditory manner very effectively. Do you notice that with other individuals with dyslexia that you see in your clinic?

Dr. Tempini:
Absolutely. It's a big area of research for us to not just look at the weaknesses in the individuals who learn differently but also look at the strengths and actually really foster the strengths to remediate the weaknesses and...

Dr. Tempini:
What is happening...and we’re learning in behavioral neurology in neuroscience is that really the brain is made of different muscles, different networks that do different things. There is emotional networks and linguistic networks and executive functioning networks. It seems like both in development and in diversity of development or in maybe neurological disease of older age, these networks work in balance with each other. Sometimes for one to work optimally, another one needs to be shut off. They really work in balance with each other.

Dr. Tempini:
What we’re finding in children and adults with dyslexia is, sometimes these reading and language networks being somehow working differently enhances other networks.

Dr. Tempini:
We find for instance, strengths in social cognition and emotional recognition, and strengths sometimes in understanding quickly, getting the gist of problems very quickly. Is it a compensation? Or is it you saying the way her brain has always been and being dyslexic is part of what whole brain is.

Dr. Tempini:
It's something that we actively study, but there are many very successful dyslexics that will tell you, "Oh, I charmed my way through school." But not everybody can charm their way through school. There are these specific strengths. Some people call them gifts. Maybe gift is a little too much because kids and individuals struggle with this. Definitely strengths that can be different for different people, depending on the type of dyslexia they have.

Dr. Nath:
That's interesting. Barbara brought up that she's met a number of people in business, people who are successful in business, who specifically have mentioned to her that they have dyslexia. We have Barbara Corcoran. We have Charles Schwab, and I'm sure many others have some learning differences as well.

Dr. Nath:
What are the first steps? If a family comes to see you and there's a concern about reading difficulty, can you kind of take us through the workflow of what happens after that?

Dr. Tempini:
Yeah, I wish there was a standardized. UCSF is one of the few medical institutions that actually has a clinic, but dyslexia is not a condition that is covered by insurance.
Dr. Nath:
Oh, goodness.

Dr. Tempini:
I know. ADHD is. Language disorders of known causes like a little stroke or something like that would be covered, but dyslexia because there is this interaction that we were talking about at the beginning with schooling and academic success and teaching, it has fallen through the cracks.

Dr. Tempini:
Most dyslexia, actually all dyslexia evaluations right now need to be done either through a school or privately. It kind of becomes a social justice issue as well. Right?

Dr. Nath:
Oh, wow.

Dr. Tempini:
Yeah.

Dr. Nath:
It does. Yeah.

Dr. Tempini:
Usually what happens is kind of late in third or fourth grade, probably a parent or teacher will realize that a child is not acquiring literacy at the level that they should for their intelligence. Then, it starts a school prod, a school evaluation.

Dr. Tempini:
Again, a long time. Again, most parents take things into their own hands. That's something that we’re trying to change and advocate for at UCSF. Also, third grade is late. That means a child has gone through four years of schooling feeling that they're not intelligent and not understanding what's going on. It's really too late.

Dr. Tempini:
What we are working on is on screening tools for kindergarten and first grade. We have a big program that we’re working on to really do early screening when the interventions are more effective. So earlier on.

Dr. Nath:
Do you think that there's a, I'm curious, genetic component to dyslexia? Does it tend to run in families or not so much?

Dr. Tempini:
Yes, it tends to run in family very much. I would say that learning differences in general run in families. Maybe there is the same family in which one child might have issues with attention, and the other child may have issue with dyslexia. It's probably these asymmetric intelligences, and asymmetric brains that run in family that are probably necessary for discoveries and great-

Dr. Nath:
Great things. Right? Yeah.

Dr. Tempini:
...business opportunity. Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

Dr. Tempini:
If it runs in the family, that's definitely a reason to have a child screen very early.

Dr. Nath:
For families that are listening to this that may be just diagnosed with dyslexia, what, in broad terms, does therapy look like for these children?

Dr. Tempini:
There are some basic principles which really are the explicit instruction in a systematic way on acquiring written language. It's a little bit complicated to explain, but they are reading specialists and speech pathologists that really work on teaching reading in a way that is more multi-sensory that takes into consideration the skills and strengths that the child has- auditory, visual…

Dr. Tempini:
In understanding, we see that many children with dyslexia have amazing vocabulary. Sometimes we just need to teach them how language works. How the different components of a word, the prefixes, the suffixes, some words are similar, attention and attentional. They come from the same root.

Dr. Tempini:
They might not be able to memorize that spelling just by seeing the words a few times. They need to work it out a little more. We need to give them the tools to work it out and make it automatic.

Dr. Nath:
It's interesting what you were telling us about what goes into therapy with dyslexia, which is using a more multisensory approach. It occurs to me. It makes me think, wouldn't everyone benefit from that?

Dr. Nath:
I think that would probably make reading-

Dr. Tempini:
Absolutely.

Dr. Nath:
...easier for every kid out there. It'll be interesting to see if some of those techniques can kind of seep into education for everybody. That would be wonderful.

Dr. Tempini:
It's applicable to every child. Knowing the structure of the word and not just looking at it. Knowing why “cat” is spelled cat and why “pint” is pint and not pint.

Dr. Tempini:
Some systematic way of teaching reading is much more effective for everybody. That doesn't mean that a dyslexic child doesn't need an extra dose.

Dr. Tempini:
For us neurologists, again, this is a no brainer, right? We've learned how language works in the brain by studying patients who had language disorders. And then we learned how language works for everybody.

Dr. Tempini:
I'm hoping, and we’re really advocating for that. There are some ways of explicitly and systematically teaching reading that are better for everybody.

Dr. Nath:
Yeah. Gosh. As you're saying this, I think like, "Oh gosh. I think my son could benefit from a lot of this." He's five years old and learning, right? So, I think everybody could.

Dr. Tempini:
You could check. I think I encourage every parent to talk to their school and understand what curriculum they're using to teach reading because that's where their language brain develops is at school. It's really important. I think we should really use everything we know about language and literacy to teach young children. So, I would definitely encourage you to ask what curriculum.

Dr. Nath:
I'm so glad you said that. I mean, I'm a pediatric neurologist and that never occurred to me to ask the school like, "What curriculum do you use?" All of us can do that. That's wonderful. Then we can go from there and see what works and see what may need to be supplemented.

Dr. Nath:
Are there resources you would like to tell our audience about for anyone out there who's listening and just getting started to the process of where they should reach out?

Dr. Tempini:
Yes, the IDA, the International Dyslexia Association, has a beautiful website. We, at UCSF, dyslexia.ucsf.edu have some resources.

Dr. Tempini:
There is a beautiful organization out of New York that is called understood.org, and that also has a beautiful website with a lot of resources and help.

Dr. Nath:
Wonderful! We will put some of these in the show notes as well, so people can find some of these resources.

Dr. Nath:
Thank you so much, Dr. Tempini, for joining us today.

Dr. Tempini:
Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Correa:
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Dr. Nath:
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Dr. Correa:
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Dr. Correa:
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Dr. Nath:
We are your hosts.

Dr. Correa:
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